Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 78

Thread: Can a 12 year old consent to sex?

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3

    Default Can a 12 year old consent to sex?

    I just read this article. This part caught my attention:

    "The victim said she started to kiss him and that he initially pushed her off. She then tried to kiss him again and he kissed her back before they had sex."


    This 12 year old wasn't 'raped', she consented to sex. In today's society it's feasible for a 12 year old to look older than 12, understand what sex is and be interested in it. There is no evidence that this girl suffered any psychological trauma as a result of having sex, after all the age of consent is 13 in Spain and 12 (with parental permission) in the Netherlands.

    Was this a victimless crime? Should this man have gone to jail?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    967

    Default

    No, a 12 year old is a minor. I could have some sympathy if he was 15/16 . . . 17/18 maybe, but a 25b year old man having sex with a 12 year old?? No, the man's a cunt and should be sent to jail for a long time - castrated if I gave into my baser instincts . . .

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    I agree 100% with Rook on this one. The ages of consent you quote for Holland and Spain refer to sex between two young people of similar age, not between a child and an adult. The discrepancy of the power relationship between an adult and child is always clear in these relationships. It may have been that this girl was curious about sex, but nonetheless it was HE who knowingly groomed the girl on the internet, knowing full well that she was underage.

    How can you claim the girl suffered no psychological trauma? She got herself in a situation she couldn't control and felt she had to act accordingly. The trauma may well come some time later when she realises she was used and that her innocence was cruelly taken from her. She may well have feelings of worthlessness and of being "damaged goods". She may well take to self-destructive behaviours, such as self-harming, drug-abuse or sexual promiscuity. Her school attendance and her academic potential are likely to fly out of the window, and she will probably become estranged from her parents. Lets remember that her parents are victims in this too - this man came into their home and violated their little girl. How do you think they feel? How would you feel if it was your daughter (or sister or niece)?

    Isn't the innocence of children a gift that is worth fighting for, as far as possible in modern society? The age of consent was increased from 12 to 16 to stamp out the child-sex trade which was booming in Victorian London. Those of us whose business is the welfare of children (thats includes me - I'm a schoolteacher) see no reason why it should be reduced again. Only sick people like Jimmy Savile or Gary Glitter are likely to disagree.
    Last edited by Northumbrian; 01-27-2013 at 01:21 AM.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rook View Post
    No, a 12 year old is a minor. I could have some sympathy if he was 15/16 . . . 17/18 maybe, but a 25b year old man having sex with a 12 year old??.
    Why would it be different if he was 15/16? Sex would have the same risks. Why would a 12 year old having sex with a 16 year old be less damaging than a 12 year old having sex with a 20 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbrian View Post
    The ages of consent you quote for Holland and Spain refer to sex between two young people of similar age, not between a child and an adult.
    Wrong, do some research. The Spanish age of consent is 13 as the UK age of consent is 16 - no strings attached. And the age of consent in Holland is 16, but unless a parent complains it's technicality 12. In Italy, Portugal and Austria the AOC is 14 - no strings attached, a 40 year old can have sex with a 14 year old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbrian View Post
    The discrepancy of the power relationship between an adult and child is always clear in these relationships.
    What about the discrepancy of the power in relationships between a rich man and poor woman? Or when one partner is 20 and the other 40? There is still no evidence of harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbrian View Post
    it was HE who knowingly groomed the girl on the internet
    Define groomed. The media use it synonymously with 'chatted up', which is what 'grooming' a woman over 16 is called.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbrian View Post
    How can you claim the girl suffered no psychological trauma?
    True. I have no idea if she was or wasn't traumatized, but I bet a psychologist could make an assessment. For the record there are numerous cases of kids who later married their adult lover - Mary Kay Letourneau for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbrian View Post
    Isn't the innocence of children a gift that is worth fighting for
    Don't be naive. Kids are shagging each other all over the UK these days. It's biology, you can't fight nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbrian View Post
    The age of consent was increased from 12 to 16 to stamp out the child-sex trade
    Prostitution is a form of slavery. It's totally different from consensual sex.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGame View Post
    Why would it be different if he was 15/16? Sex would have the same risks. Why would a 12 year old having sex with a 16 year old be less damaging than a 12 year old having sex with a 20 year old?
    You seem to be arguing for the legalisation of paedophilia. Not a very popular (or correct) line of thought, and I would say that if your interest in this is anything more than academic, then you are walking down a dark path and perhaps need to assess your thoughts and feelings. Nonetheless, lets respond to your points.

    There is nothing wrong with young people experimenting sexually with each other - that is perfectly natural and I wouldn't seek to criminalise this. However, there comes a point where the age of one partner is too low and the other is too great for this to be seen as innocent experimentation. It becomes abuse. Society has a duty to protect vulnerable people and therefore we need laws to stop this. Unfortunately, the law requires lines to be drawn into the sand which may seem arbitrary, but which are necessary to make the law workable. Your argument is equivalent to saying that we shouldn't prosecute a drunk driver with 31mg/litre of alcohol in his blood (1mg over the legal limit) because he isn't much more dangerous than a drunk driver with 29mg/litre in his blood.

    In fact, despite its "line in the sand" nature, there is a measure of leniency and common sense applied to the issue of age of consent for those who are slightly on the wrong side. The police are unlikely to prosecute a 17y.o. lad who has a 15y.o. girlfriend, unless the girl herself makes a complaint (which is highly unlikely).

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGame View Post
    Wrong, do some research. The Spanish age of consent is 13 as the UK age of consent is 16 - no strings attached. And the age of consent in Holland is 16, but unless a parent complains it's technicality 12. In Italy, Portugal and Austria the AOC is 14 - no strings attached, a 40 year old can have sex with a 14 year old.
    I'm sure you can find lots of backward countries with odd laws that fail to protect the innocent. In Egypt, it is possible to obtain under Islamic law a "temporary marriage permit". These are often used by wealthy paedophiles to "purchase" young girls (as young as 10 or 11) from poor parents, who can then be legally raped before being returned to the parents.

    As far as Europe goes, I suggest you do a bit more research if you are considering becoming a sexual tourist. Good old wikipedia is a good place to start. As you'll see, 15 or 16 is the most common age of consent - even in a third-world hell-hole like Moldova it is 16! Those countries which seemingly have lower ages of consent usually have other clauses in place to prevent abuse of older children. As for Holland, what parent in their right mind would not complain if their 12y.o. daughter was being sexually abused by an adult? Perhaps a better system than the UK, where parental complaints can often be disregarded by the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGame View Post
    What about the discrepancy of the power in relationships between a rich man and poor woman? Or when one partner is 20 and the other 40? There is still no evidence of harm.
    A poor woman will usually have the life experience to understand a man's sexual advances and what he is after, and whilst there are plenty of naive 20 year olds around, you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGame View Post
    Define groomed. The media use it synonymously with 'chatted up', which is what 'grooming' a woman over 16 is called.
    Where have the media used it synonymously with "chatted up"??? The difference is clear to most people.

    Groomed is where a person in power manipulates a vulnerable person into a position of sexual exploitation. A groomer might lie about his age and interests. He might buy a young girl expensive gifts and pay her compliments, with her not realising what he wants in return. Chatting up is completely different - the person on the receiving end is in control and has the power. How many chat-ups end with the man being told to sling his hook?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGame View Post
    True. I have no idea if she was or wasn't traumatized, but I bet a psychologist could make an assessment. For the record there are numerous cases of kids who later married their adult lover - Mary Kay Letourneau for example.
    I can't prove it but I would say there is at least chance a 90% she will suffer psychological trauma, either now or in later life. Then there is the issue of physical damage. She was only 12 for heavens sake and possibly not even pubescent. She could have suffered haemoraging from penetrative sex, and will now have an increased risk of cervical cancer. Then there is the risk of sexual infection ... by his photo, the guy looked like a filthy bastard. Given his lack of any other sort of concern for the girl, I doubt he wore a condom.

    There are strange women who are attracted to serial killers and write them letters in prison professing their love. Similarly, I am sure there is the odd woman who "loves" the paedophile who abused her as a child. You can't base the law on these bizarre cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGame View Post
    Don't be naive. Kids are shagging each other all over the UK these days. It's biology, you can't fight nature.
    Nothing wrong with kids experimenting with each other. That is part of growing up. You might be surprised to learn that most surveys suggest that average age of losing one's virginity is still 17 for a girl and 18 for a boy - a figure that despite media hype to the contrary hasn't changed much over the years. It seems that there are a lot of kids who are not, as you put it, "shagging each other".

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGame View Post
    Prostitution is a form of slavery. It's totally different from consensual sex.
    Quite true. Odd then that you don't recognise paedophilia as being totally different from consensual sex too!

  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Let's get some facts straight. No-one under sixteen in England and Wales can consent to sex. This technically makes any such penetration rape, or any non-penetrative act sexual assault. Question- will the police or CPS proceed to charging someone- decided on the basis of whether the age gap is such as to be seen as unacceptable- maybe within 2-3 years of being the same age unless the girl is under 13 when different rules apply.

    Society as a whole (in its official form) accepts that under sixteens will have sexual experiences but at the same time as trying to protect the vulnerable, it tries to avoid criminalising early consensual sexual experience. Hence, the police and CPS often do not proceed with charges, and doctors and nurses are free to give contraceptive advice and contraceptives to people under the age of 16 without it being seen as inciting an illegal act.

    The average age of losing virginity is stated to be 16. This implies that a large plurality of people have there first sexual intercourse before that age.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyonessite View Post
    Let's get some facts straight. No-one under sixteen in England and Wales can consent to sex. This technically makes any such penetration rape, or any non-penetrative act sexual assault.
    Indeed, and I would go further and say that if the older person is significantly older, then it isn't just "technical rape" under the law but is morally and physically rape as well. It seemed that DoctorGame only came on here once to try and justify his apparently pro-paedophilia arguments, but then quickly disappeared without debating the issue! Just as well perhaps, as it wasn't a debate he could win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyonessite View Post
    Question- will the police or CPS proceed to charging someone- decided on the basis of whether the age gap is such as to be seen as unacceptable- maybe within 2-3 years of being the same age unless the girl is under 13 when different rules apply.
    The fact that such prosecutions are very rare indicates that at least there is some sanity in our legal system, and an ability to apply the law flexibly when common sense and compassion dictates. It is a shame that the same can't be said for Labour's shameful human rights laws, which seem to force the police to arrest anyone who has voiced an opinion against immigration in public, and indeed forces the CPS to prosecute such cases. Mind you, I don't see the police or CPS complain against doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyonessite View Post
    The average age of losing virginity is stated to be 16. This implies that a large plurality of people have there first sexual intercourse before that age.
    I believe more scientific surveys (e.g. those not conducted by FHM magazine!) point to a slightly older age, around 17 for girls and 18 for boys. My experience as a teacher (and a lower sixth form tutor) would seem to indicate this as well - an awful lot of 16 year olds are incredibly clumsy when dealing with the opposite sex, even though boys in particular will "talk the talk" so to speak, as if they are "men of the world"! Nonetheless, a significant fraction of kids - whether it is 10% or 20% - will probably lose their virginity underage, and a larger fraction will have non-penetrative sexual experience. I doubt the numbers have changed much since the availability of contraception. Biology is biology! At the end of the day, this is harmless, providing they are with someone their own age, not being pushed into something, and, of course, protecting themselves against STD's and unwanted pregnancies.
    Last edited by Northumbrian; 03-24-2013 at 12:33 PM.

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Ah....I believe the core problem should be pregnancy, which directly leads to numerous social problems. Let's say crimes etc. The incapable parents simply abandon their children. It may not seem appropriate, but here comes the news a Chinese woman abandoned her child in the toilet drain. Those parents concerned were adults already, and it is highly probable to be more devastating as this comes to those sexually-assaulted.

    Casual sex is always glorified by those profit-making films or advertisement whatsoever, by what they ideologically convey that "sex impulse is human nature". And long enough to make people become desensitized with it. But fortunately, the human nature has been restricting by legislation in some places.

    By the way, take India as an exemplar. Successive gang rape has been ongoing even at this very moment, every day , all the time. Those are true victims. But it's not the case here. The girl agreed to do so and, moreover, she failed to resist the sweet spot when the man is sexually attractive to her. That's pointless to act innocently afterwards. It doesn't conceal her desire at that very moment she, presumably, should have struggled.

    Even she's guaranteed by the existing law, I, though find it unjust she could shrug off all the responsibility, and simple kick the can down the road. Neither could she be justified by Stockholm syndrome, I suppose?
    Last edited by chomool; 06-03-2013 at 12:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chomool View Post
    By the way, take India as an exemplar. Successive gang rape has been ongoing even at this very moment, every day , all the time. Those are true victims. But it's not the case here. The girl agreed to do so and, moreover, she failed to resist the sweet spot when the man is sexually attractive to her. That's pointless to act innocently afterwards. It doesn't conceal her desire at that very moment she, presumably, should have struggled.
    Sigh ... sorry but seems like you are acting as an apologist for paedophilia here (much like our "moderator" Eatmy in another thread). The childs actions, whether she tried to kiss him or not, are utterly irrelevant. The law is quite clear that a 12 year old cannot consent to sex. Even if the child did try to kiss him, the man could of, and should of, chosen to tell her NO and that she was too young. Contrary to the opinions of some cultures (such as the Islamic) men are not the innocent victims of female sexuality who cannot resist the sexual temptation of whatever is thrown at them. In our society, men take responsibility for their own actions.

    The fact that he was sexually attracted to a child proves that he is a pervert and a deviant. Bear in mind he was 25 and KNEW she was 12! His perversion is bad enough, but not illegal as long as he kept his desires to his own sick mind. The fact the HE CHOSE to sexually violate a pre-pubescent child proves that he is an unpleasant and dangerous criminal who is willing to break the law to satisfy his unnatural lust. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. I hope he is treated as other nonces are in jail, and then deported to his country of origin.
    Last edited by Northumbrian; 06-06-2013 at 07:21 PM.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator eatmywords's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Kingston upon Hull
    Posts
    2,473

    Default

    Unlike Northumbrian who immediately jumped to Sir Jimmy Saville's defence when he was accused with countless acts of paedophillia. It's much better to take a holistic approach before intrinsically observing the structure. Why, the subject might go off in your face at any time.

    I would hazard a guess, that in the case of Jeremy Stammers, the fault doesn't necessarily lie solely in the teacher's lap.
    Last edited by eatmywords; 06-07-2013 at 06:27 PM.
    Faced with certain disaster, defiance is the only answer.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •