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Thread: White Flight

  1. #21
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    Yes ,Northumbrian, "bluster." "You accuse me of so many things I,m not," "You are so one dimensional". "You use stereotypes." So you make no accusations.? You are multi-dimensional.? And you don,t use stereotypes.? Now eatmy, has had two good laughs this week, but that without doubt has given me the best laugh I have had for a while.
    In the 40s and 50s even the early sixties hardly anybody in the areas you have mentioned owned their own homes, No confusion I was there, were you?. Yes in the end landlords did sell to immigrants, and then as they do now moaned about them being here. You can criticise all Sugar, you like but it is vindictive, and of no value to your arguments.
    If its a great left wing plot ,why have the Tories always gone along with it, they say they don,t but they do, or have you not noticed that,in all these years? I,ll say this much ,maybe they are so bloody greedy ,they can ,t resist the next profit to be gained by being two faced. Theres more than a few pubs I wouldn,t let you loose in, as you might not get out again.
    Working immigrants go where the work is, simples, no mystery. Keep blustering Northumbrian, I have always supported you in that.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbrian View Post
    Because in a lot of respects it is a great plot hatched by the left. Opening the door to immigrants certainly works in your favour, just as trapping people on benefits and expanding the public sector does. It gives you a ready-made and increasing electorate. The de-Torification of England is your party's plan, and always has been. It is always interesting to note how almost no immigrants have settled in Scotland and Wales ... no need to bolster the socialist vote there, do you?
    I think it was Andrew Neather, a Labour speechwriter, who wrote something in the Evening Standard along the lines that Labour deliberately relaxed controls in order to open up the UK to mass immigration. He also claimed they didn't want the policy discussed publicly because it would cause resentment among their core working class vote. He then later denied that he'd said that, and that the Standard had distorted what he'd said. I actually agree with you that the Labour party did plan and implement an open door policy on immigration and that they allowed the Multiculturalist gravy train to influence them heavily, and it was one of the main reasons why I didn't vote for them in the last election after having been one of those "core working class labour voters" all my life.

  3. #23
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    How much more Tory can you get than the Standard, Red, They wouldn,t dream of distorting his words would they. The only certainty there , was that some of us would end up being taken in. The real argument here is , are we now in this situation with immigration , purely because of Labour policy? The answer has to be no. The Tories have only ever given out sound bites, to appease the public, they have never seriously opposed immigration. proof if it was needed is in the fact that they have never come close doing it. What they did do however was encourage their attack dogs in Fleet St to put out spurious pieces on Labours policy. Totally in line of course with the rest of their approach to getting Labour out of power. You are proof of how well it worked for them.
    Last edited by Mack; 03-31-2013 at 07:17 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mack View Post
    How much more Tory can you get than the Standard, Red, They wouldn,t dream of distorting his words would they. The only certainty there , was that some of us would end up being taken in. The real argument here is , are we now in this situation with immigration , purely because of Labour policy? The answer has to be no. The Tories have only ever given out sound bites, to appease the public, they have never seriously opposed immigration. proof if it was needed is in the fact that they have never come close doing it. What they did do however was encourage there attack dogs in Fleet St to put out spurious pieces on Labours policy. Totally in line of course with the rest of there approach to getting Labour out of power. You are proof of how well it worked for them.
    Tbf Mack, I did give others reasons earlier why I didn't feel it to be a one track issue, and if you read my post on the previous page, I don't make any excuses for Tory policies on immigration either. Neither did I claim the situation we are now in with immigration was purely because of labour policies. I said that I agreed with Northumbrian that Labour did "plan and implement an open door policy on immigration and that they allowed the Multiculturalist gravy train to influence them heavily", which does not equate to saying the situation is solely because of Labour policies. They are though, heavily to blame.

    As for your comment on the Standard, I guess the Standard is hardly partial, as are most publications not impartial. But then since Neather is supposed to have written the article himself, I can only guess at the reasons why he did not then take legal action over the article if he felt he was misrepresented? If it was edited after he'd written it, he would surely have had a good case.

    In addition, Mr Milliband recently admitted that "mistakes" were made during the last government over the EU Transistion arrangements that the UK Government could have put in place, but decided not to. I think Sweden was the only other country who also chose not to implement them. Here are the European Parliament and Council Directives for transistion (link below). If you look at part 2c, that was what we "opted out" of. I would say "mistake" is an understatement, when you consider that the then Governments estimate was that 13,000 people per annum would come to the UK from the first round of the enlarged EU. When in fact the true figure, during 2005 at least, was closer to half a million. That, to me anyway, sounds more like incompetence than a mistake.

    http://circa.europa.eu/irc/opoce/fac...le_7175_en.htm

    As for me being proof of anything, I simply have a different view to you. Simply because you don't share my view, it does not mean I believe everything written in certain newspapers or the media outlets. I am more than capable of looking at multiple sources and forming my own opinion, as I'm sure are you.

  5. #25
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    I,m sure you do have other reasons for not agreeing with me Red, but you did say that the piece by Neather true or otherwise , had played a big part in you not voting Labour. The European issue is of course a real bone of contention, if only because we don,t know if the Tories would have done differently, yes now as on so many issues they say they would have, well would n,t they just. I doubt them for one very simple reason, no matter what the numbers were, these people were welcomed with open arms into our manufactoring, our service, our farming industries, only now that we are in constant recession are we seeing any real hold up in this. Milliband wants to own up to his and his parties mistakes, of course they did make mistakes, and I agree that mistakes have been made. but what are you judging them against. Every government I have ever known has made mistakes, so take your pick. Almost three years of this lot now, No end of U turns, No end of failed policy, No mistakes (so they say)

  6. #26
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    I'll split that into three parts, in that I agree with part of what you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mack View Post
    I,m sure you do have other reasons for not agreeing with me Red, but you did say that the piece by Neather true or otherwise , had played a big part in you not voting Labour.
    No, what I said was

    "I actually agree with you (eg Northumbrian) that the Labour party did plan and implement an open door policy on immigration and that they allowed the Multiculturalist gravy train to influence them heavily, and it was one of the main reasons why I didn't vote for them in the last election after having been one of those "core working class labour voters" all my life"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mack View Post
    The European issue is of course a real bone of contention, if only because we don,t know if the Tories would have done differently, yes now as on so many issues they say they would have, well would n,t they just. I doubt them for one very simple reason, no matter what the numbers were, these people were welcomed with open arms into our manufactoring, our service, our farming industries, only now that we are in constant recession are we seeing any real hold up in this.
    Thats true, we don't know what the Tories would have done. And I agree with the bolded part, as I said on the previous page, the Tories would not have ducked a call from their paymasters in big business if the issue had been pressed when they were in power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mack View Post
    Milliband wants to own up to his and his parties mistakes, of course they did make mistakes, and I agree that mistakes have been made. but what are you judging them against. Every government I have ever known has made mistakes, so take your pick. Almost three years of this lot now, No end of U turns, No end of failed policy, No mistakes (so they say)
    Perhaps. But I don't believe on this issue that they made mistakes. I believe they followed it as deliberate policy. Milliband knows for sure they lost of lot of loyal voters, over this matter in particular. But as far as I'm concerned, I voted Labour prior to the last election, I didn't vote for the Tories. What the Tories do or didn't do isn't the issue for me on this, the issue is that the Labour party pursued a policy that they had not made any reference to in their pre election manifesto, and they pursued it despite the fact they they knew damn well that what they were doing would "upset" their core vote.

    Its easy for us to say that the Tories cheat and deliberately mislead when we want to make a political point. But we don't feel half so good about it when the party we have been loyal to for most of our lives turn out to be little better.

  7. #27
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    It doesn,t look as if it was exactly a St Paul, moment, but but good luck anyway Red.

  8. #28
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    I'm really not sure Labour had a "open-door" plan for immigration, but merely lost control of any plan they had in place when they took office. I consider The Balkans pretty much screwed up that plan, when Tony Blair said Britain would accept 100,000 refugees a month. I can only speak from my experience in Hull, when the council, on the basis of receiving government and European money for each refugee they took, began accepting large numbers of single Muslim men from the conflicted area.

    In a city that was facing severe depopulation, unemployment, and de-industrialisation, it would seem prudent fiscal sense to try and bolster the local economy by jumping on any gravy train possible, and this council certainly did that. Although the landlords, including the council, did recover from severe economic downturn from the loss of, between, 30-50,000 people from this area, apparently, in 10 years, this seemed to be a very simple answer to a very serious and complicated problem. However, as intake grew to the point it was very noticeable in the area, tensions among local people also grew. I was witness to a number of mini-local riots that were fuelled by immigrants merely settling in the area.

    Once Afghanistan and Iraq hit, then the situation began to be exasperated, as it may be okay for a government to bomb innocent people from their homes, but not so to refuse them shelter when you proclaim your purpose of bombing them is to make their lives better. Britain is better, I imagine, than both Afghanistan and Iraq. So I suppose Labour were in a paradoxical position of either looking very right-wing and refusing entry to the people we were murdering, or just leave the door open and sort the problem out at a later date.

    All the Tories have done is closed the door and returned to controlled immigration of only allowing rich foreigners and selective trades into the country; much like the rich Arab sheiks and the poor Caribbeans of the 1960s. Although this is not a bad thing, it doesn't really have any ethical principle to it; that even though we are helping to bomb democracy into effect in North Africa and the Middle East, you have to put-up and shut-up during the transition.
    Faced with certain disaster, defiance is the only answer.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mack View Post
    It doesn,t look as if it was exactly a St Paul, moment, but but good luck anyway Red.
    Thank you Mack. Although I have always voted Labour (except last time out), I wouldn't describe myself as "left wing". I guess I voted Labour because I come from a working class family, and it was what you did. You certainly didnt vote Tory. I would say my values are more a little to the right of centre now I am older, and definately I am not "liberal".

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    Once Afghanistan and Iraq hit, then the situation began to be exasperated, as it may be okay for a government to bomb innocent people from their homes, but not so to refuse them shelter when you proclaim your purpose of bombing them is to make their lives better. Britain is better, I imagine, than both Afghanistan and Iraq. So I suppose Labour were in a paradoxical position of either looking very right-wing and refusing entry to the people we were murdering, or just leave the door open and sort the problem out at a later date.

    All the Tories have done is closed the door and returned to controlled immigration of only allowing rich foreigners and selective trades into the country; much like the rich Arab sheiks and the poor Caribbeans of the 1960s. Although this is not a bad thing, it doesn't really have any ethical principle to it; that even though we are helping to bomb democracy into effect in North Africa and the Middle East, you have to put-up and shut-up during the transition.
    I'm not sure I agree with the term 'murdering', but then thats a different subject. Again, I have no more time for the Tories than I do for Labour anymore, but for me it was the imposition of Multiculturalism (a word and concept I'd never heard of prior to the last government) that I found difficult to accept. When I read about what it actually meant, I was shocked. It never occured to me that there were people in this country who would advocate others being able to come and live here without embracing this countries language, culture and heritage.

  10. #30
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    I don't like multiculturism as much as anyone else, but I don't really see what can be done about people secularising themselves into their own communities. I'm sure we would all like to live in a utopia where all races can live and play in a community that holds no prejudice or racism, but I think you are aware as much as me, this is not the case in our society at least. The lower down the social scale you move, the more resentment other races face when settling into these communities.

    I will ask Red, do you see multiculturism the problem of the settling country, or the settlers?
    Faced with certain disaster, defiance is the only answer.

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