David Cameron Upholds Spying

[eatmywords]

Yesterday David Cameron issued a "veiled threat" to the press by warning other more stringent measures could be used to prevent the leaking of national secrets which could embarrass the government and seemingly destabilise national security. How the British Press have a contract between the actions of Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden and the printing of their revelations is a little unclear, but one would think the spying on our allies would be in the public interest. Yesterday the NSA files revealed over 60 million Spanish citizens calls were intercepted and the German Premier Andrea Merkel was monitored by the American Security Services. Other than embarrassment it is difficult to understand how this would help our enemies, whomever they may be.

"We have a free press, it's very important the press feels it is not pre-censored from what it writes and all the rest of it"

Perhaps if the security services applied a little of this statement to how it operates then we might not be in this situation. If this is the price of freedom, then maybe we could do with a little less of it.

[Ollyof39]

Like I've said on my other board - no wonder they've all got it in for Snowden; what a can of worms he's opened eh? Nothing whatsoever to do with 'national security' of course, only the disclosure of gobsmacking incompetence and lack of judgement on the part of today's military and politicians. Their faux indignation reminds me of 'Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive.' It would be funny if it was so bloody transparent.

[eatmywords]

I would just like to know what the thinking is behind spying on your allies.

[Ollyof39]

I think the latest is that the yanks have denied it all! Stop the world I wanna get off!

[Rook]

Of course they will deny it, the only annoying thing here is the reaction of the German/French/Spainish governments. Are we really expected to believe that they were so naive as to think the US (and others!) would not attempt to spy on them? I'd be amazed if their respective security agencies were not already aware of what the US were up to, and I would say those government should be angrier with their security people than they should be with the US - angry for either not being able to stop the bugs, or not even being aware of them.

Anyone who buys into that talk about allies and friendship is too politically naive - or dare I say it, fucking stupid - to be in government. A country may be 'friendly', but it is not your friend, you are always rivals first and foremost. For example, Germany's export success harms the Spainish economy and is a rival to the US export (and domestic) businesses.

[eatmywords]

I think it's the extent that's the problem. It's one thing to spy on embassies and national secrets, but 60 million Spanish phone calls? That's not really in the remit of espionage, in the classic sense. The US are treating everyone with an unhealthy level of suspicion that is on a par with Communist Russia.

[Mack]

What on earth is this all about? Spying, espionage, has always gone on. As Rook says, we have no friends, just associations, some more positive than others. This will always be the case ,unless we fancy coming last. If the tools are available they will use them. Why be surprised. 60 million sounds a lot but Spain does have hugh links to North Africa, which is acknowledged to be full of terrorist organisations. but that aside it is easy to draw a comparison to the soviets listening to their own people, the difference is plain however , as this is not their own people. And the US and the UK for that matter have only one priority, that is their own people.

[eatmywords]

It therefore makes the case there is no trust, and so we should not pretend there is.

[Mack]

It therefore makes the case there is no trust, and so we should not pretend there is.

Absolutely. Just look at the last 100 years of our history, better still look at recent events. What is there to trust? It is a myth, plain and simple that any of this is purely for our benefit. OK it will always be the case that we should have some loyalty to the society we are born into, just as father to son , brother to brother. But that is quiet different to accepting the state with all of its faults. Accept yes, but Trust no. It shouldn,t take a Snowden to know, what can happen, does happen, and will happen, between states and states, and states and the people in them. History says that States and their peoples can and do become enemies, we might ignore that but the state doesn,t. So sooner or later anything goes. There is no reason to trust.

[Ollyof39]

Of course they will deny it, the only annoying thing here is the reaction of the German/French/Spainish governments. Are we really expected to believe that they were so naive as to think the US (and others!) would not attempt to spy on them? I'd be amazed if their respective security agencies were not already aware of what the US were up to, and I would say those government should be angrier with their security people than they should be with the US - angry for either not being able to stop the bugs, or not even being aware of them.

Anyone who buys into that talk about allies and friendship is too politically naive - or dare I say it, fucking stupid - to be in government. A country may be 'friendly', but it is not your friend, you are always rivals first and foremost. For example, Germany's export success harms the Spainish economy and is a rival to the US export (and domestic) businesses.

You make some good points, but don't you think the US is verging on acute paranoia - especially when it monitors the personal phone calls of the leaders of friendly countries? And as for their drone attack in Pakistan in recent days, I think the US isn't just paranoid, it has a serious judgemental problem too. Then again - if Pakistan believes the Taliban will be amenable for negotiating anything, it has a serious judgemental problem too!! Interesting times!