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Thread: Ban all adverts for children?

  1. #11
    Super Moderator eatmywords's Avatar
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    Other than the ethical question of advertising to kids, I don't see a problem with these lenders, in the face of the banks and the finance industry in general. After the bubble burst the banks started charging anything upwards of 50% for credit cards, and a friend of mine who worked for a credit company said he was charging 89% loans to bad credit scores. These businesses were regulated, but it didn't stop them from driving the country into deeper debt.

    I think the problem is Rook, will these credit companies still tack on the interest while the debt remains unpaid? If someone fails/refuses to pay for a year, and it can take over a year to take such a case to court, then someone could end up with a debt 5-10-times greater than what they originally borrowed; and I can't see a court being too supportive of such usury; which is a crime.
    Faced with certain disaster, defiance is the only answer.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Rook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    Other than the ethical question of advertising to kids, I don't see a problem with these lenders, in the face of the banks and the finance industry in general. After the bubble burst the banks started charging anything upwards of 50% for credit cards, and a friend of mine who worked for a credit company said he was charging 89% loans to bad credit scores. These businesses were regulated, but it didn't stop them from driving the country into deeper debt.
    So because other lenders may be comparable, you have nothing against payday lenders??

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    I think the problem is Rook, will these credit companies still tack on the interest while the debt remains unpaid? If someone fails/refuses to pay for a year, and it can take over a year to take such a case to court, then someone could end up with a debt 5-10-times greater than what they originally borrowed; and I can't see a court being too supportive of such usury; which is a crime.
    Interest and fees yes. The problem is not so much the court judgements (as they rarely go to court) it's the barely disguised threats from debt collection agencies and solictors. The trick they pull, is to inflate you original loan from say, 200 to 1,000, threaten you with solicitor letters, then offer to "do you a favour" and reduce the loan to 75%. Plenty of people buckle at this point and the c/o has charged 750 for a 200 loan.

  3. #13
    Super Moderator eatmywords's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rook View Post
    So because other lenders may be comparable, you have nothing against payday lenders?
    What is there to be against? Their interest rates? That's something the government, the FCA, advertising agencies, and the media I'm sure have taken into account, otherwise these companies would not be allowed to trade or advertise; unless you are saying all these organisations are just as (morally) corrupt as the lenders?

    People go into these places with their eyes wide open, and if they are trying to secure a debt to pay a debt, then that's a very short-sighted way of trying to get out of debt. I'm more concerned about trying to alleviate poverty, and indeed these things should be seen as a last option, but it's still an option. I did note Cameron said the Conservatives would not be expanding the economy once austerity is resolved; whenever that may be. But if was are again getting into a similar situation of debt as we did over the last 20 years, then I can't see how this will be possible. If you consider people are desperate when turning to these places, then I'm really not sure what a business can do to resolve mental health issues.

    I believe the Quran states a person cannot profit from a debt, so maybe we have some things to learn from Sharia Law, in this country?
    Faced with certain disaster, defiance is the only answer.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Sid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rook View Post
    "Regulation" is not a cure all solution, and those acting on the pay-day lenders are simply not up for the job. It's regualtion of the light touch variety. And as for loan sharks, that was a problem restricted to a very few number of areas, and the problems associated with them were fairly easy for the police to deal with.
    I find your thoughts and comments rather uninformed and contradictory. You say loan sharks were restricted to a few areas. Well I come from one of those areas so for me it was rife in the area. Where you get the notion that this was easy to police beggars belief. You obviously have never come across this otherwise you wouldn't have made the police comment.
    Pay day lenders are open to everyone, from your single parent chavs on the estates, to students and middle class folk. And the problems associated with them (bad credit, extortiantate interests, roll-over loans etc) are MUCH more difficult for people to deal with. Yeah, you won't have someone some around to break your legs, but they'll badger you with balifs and debt collecters all the same, AND they'll have the backing (blessing) of the courts as well.

    If you wanted to end loan sharks, this is not the best replacement - far from it. It's like "regulating" the drugs and pimp industries in a way which allows the worst aspects of their industries to continue. It's nonsensical
    The above paragraph in my opinion is nonsense. How else do you suggest it's regulated, with a body of your choosing?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Rook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid View Post
    I find your thoughts and comments rather uninformed and contradictory.
    In what way are they contradictory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sid View Post
    You say loan sharks were restricted to a few areas. Well I come from one of those areas so for me it was rife in the area. Where you get the notion that this was easy to police beggars belief. You obviously have never come across this otherwise you wouldn't have made the police comment.
    We had loan sharks on my estate as well, thanks! My point about them being 'easy' for the police to deal with is that they could be caught using traditional police methods - nothing complicated about it, unless you think all police investigations are unduly complicated tasks. Perhaps I should have said 'straight forward' instead of easy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sid View Post
    The above paragraph in my opinion is nonsense.
    The above comment is worthless unless you expand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sid View Post
    How else do you suggest it's regulated, with a body of your choosing?
    It's not the "body" I have an issue with, it's the regulations they enforce. There should be a limit to the number of times a debt can be rolled over, to the amount of fees and the amount of interest they can charge. They should do serious credit and affordibility checks, and not rely so heavily on self-assessment.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Rook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    What is there to be against? Their interest rates?
    Yes, the interest rates, but also the roll-over loans/fees, the advertising, the self-assesment, the lax affordibility checks, the way they chase for unpaid fees etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    That's something the government, the FCA, advertising agencies, and the media I'm sure have taken into account, otherwise these companies would not be allowed to trade or advertise; unless you are saying all these organisations are just as (morally) corrupt as the lenders?
    You seem to be dangerously naive about those institutions

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    People go into these places with their eyes wide open, and if they are trying to secure a debt to pay a debt, then that's a very short-sighted way of trying to get out of debt. I'm more concerned about trying to alleviate poverty, and indeed these things should be seen as a last option, but it's still an option. I did note Cameron said the Conservatives would not be expanding the economy once austerity is resolved; whenever that may be. But if was are again getting into a similar situation of debt as we did over the last 20 years, then I can't see how this will be possible. If you consider people are desperate when turning to these places, then I'm really not sure what a business can do to resolve mental health issues.
    Mental health issues? Are you saying people who take out these loans have mental health issues? Poor debt management is not a mental health issue

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    I believe the Quran states a person cannot profit from a debt, so maybe we have some things to learn from Sharia Law, in this country?
    The answer is not prohibition, it's just sensible regulation.

  7. #17
    Super Moderator eatmywords's Avatar
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    So what? The banks can charge whatever interest fee they want, but there is no outcry about them doing what they will. I believe I saw a card advertised for 62.5% apr. It's up to the individual whether they enter into this contract. Are you saying people cannot be trusted with their own finances, or lack of them? Surely if a person can meet these payments then there should not be a problem over how a person manages their own finances.

    Equally getting into debt is a desperate measure, and trying to get out of it through the use of further debt cannot be considered rational. I believe this is what put this country in the situation it is in, because people kept rolling the debt over with other credit companies. I hope this isn't considered spam: "This is a free 44-page PDF booklet supported by Mind, Rethink, CAPUK and others, for people with mental health problems and those caring for them. It covers how to handle debts when unwell, work with banks, free debt counselling, specific tips for bipolar disorder or depression sufferers, whether to declare a condition and more."

    I thought you would be in support of such ethical financing seeing as you are so inimical of usury: "Sharia prohibits the fixed or floating payment or acceptance of specific interest or fees (known as riba, or usury) for loans of money" Seeing as we've seen little done in the way of regulation in this country, and we seem to be inflating another credit bubble.
    Faced with certain disaster, defiance is the only answer.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Rook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    So what? The banks can charge whatever interest fee they want, but there is no outcry about them doing what they will. I believe I saw a card advertised for 62.5% apr. It's up to the individual whether they enter into this contract. Are you saying people cannot be trusted with their own finances, or lack of them? Surely if a person can meet these payments then there should not be a problem over how a person manages their own finances.
    No outcry over banks?? Are you high right now? I'm no fan of banks or high-interest credit cards, but they are a separate issue from PayDay lenders. At least they do some affordibility checks and (generally) only increase your credit when you've been with them a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    Equally getting into debt is a desperate measure, and trying to get out of it through the use of further debt cannot be considered rational.
    Er, it can be perfectly rational. I myself took out a loan to pay off my credit card. The loan had a MUCH lower APR than the card

    Are you saying people who take out loans with PayDay lenders have mental health issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    I thought you would be in support of such ethical financing seeing as you are so inimical of usury: "Sharia prohibits the fixed or floating payment or acceptance of specific interest or fees (known as riba, or usury) for loans of money" Seeing as we've seen little done in the way of regulation in this country, and we seem to be inflating another credit bubble.
    I do not oppose charging interest. I do oppose charging extraordinarily high interest rates to the desparate without any real affordibility checks. Can you see the difference?

  9. #19
    Super Moderator eatmywords's Avatar
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    When I read your posts Rook I do need to be high.

    I try not to generalise, but debt is a prime cause of depression, I would have thought you would be aware of that. It is odd that on the one hand you are against these lenders, but are unsympathetic about the people who take the loans out. Very odd reasoning.

    No I can't see the difference in a capitalist society. I love the fact people want as much free-trade as possible, but when they realise it isn't that free they want to regulate the hell out of it. But look where regulation of the banks got us.
    Faced with certain disaster, defiance is the only answer.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Rook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    I try not to generalise, but debt is a prime cause of depression, I would have thought you would be aware of that.
    I am aware of that, but it doesn't mean that a majority (or even a siginificant minority) of PayDay lender customers, are clinically depressed. Do you have anything to suggest they are??

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    It is odd that on the one hand you are against these lenders, but are unsympathetic about the people who take the loans out. Very odd reasoning.
    A gross distortion of my position

    Quote Originally Posted by eatmywords View Post
    No I can't see the difference in a capitalist society. I love the fact people want as much free-trade as possible, but when they realise it isn't that free they want to regulate the hell out of it. But look where regulation of the banks got us.
    It's common to mistakenly place an absolute on the phrase "free" market. Very very few people advocate a totally free market. What they mean, is a market that is not state controlled, not one that is devoid of any regulation whatsoever. People will argue over the type and strength of the regulations of course, which is only fair

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